Monday, August 8, 2011


In case the readers of this blog think that I am spilling out these personal views (but what can be more personal than a nighttime dream?)without any solid intellectual challenge I am sharing these excerpts. They are of an email exchange with a reader. Below the 'black' words are the reader's , the 'blue' mine and the 'red' her words that I thought were especially important. This has mostly to do with what I said in the  paragraph below from the post "The Devil And The Collective Unconscious'. Later is a reference to the little poor boys in the post 'The Least Of These.' This is quite long. you may want to scan over it to see if you want to read in detail. Another thing,  I'm bothered that my dream reflections  often take on a 'preachy' tone. Please keep in mind the preaching is only to me for they are my dreams. But I am sharing them with you. I will be more careful how I frame my reflection statements. For ones interested in the kind of material on this blog, I can suggest the book 'Memories, Dreams and Reflections' by C.G. Jung. It can likely be found used on
"It is the 'shadow' of every group. They are strongly motivated to use their power to advance themselves, no matter what level of economic security they already enjoy. This greedy dynamic seems to be coming to a head with the middle class becoming the lower economic class and with a fully developed irrational fear of 'illegal immigrants' as expressed in legislation like the Arizona Immigration Law. And with numerous politicians reversing their stand from being for 'pathways to citizenship' to a 'send them back' mentality."
Not sure I understand this exactly as you mean it.  Seems a bit off the mark to me.  Maybe you can explain it in a way so I can understand it a bit better?  I consider the 'illegal immigrant' problem extremely thorny and complex. I think I can understand the fears and concerns that the regular legal residents are having. And they should be taken seriously. As I said in this post "The least of these', "I've not found any rational solution " to these social/racial kinds of situations. The dream about the 'little boys that came to my apartment' acknowledges the  'guilt problem' involved and that care must be taken to not to resort to unreal guilt but also to not ignore that  human dignity is at stake and risk for all.

 'Property ownership rights' are such a  hard core value of we Americans that I don’t know if any of us can comprehend that the people we took this land from had no such concept. The native Americans had a spiritual view of nature and property that is now beyond the capacity for our  Western psyche to approach, including mine. I have a good tall  privacy fence on my little piece of real estate. The issues of this essay raised to my attention by the dream I see as beyond 'rational or legal' solutions. But such  solutions can likely only come to light if one 1.acknowledges that the moral issues involved are beyond 'rational and legal' so 'they have broken the law' is not seen as some final non debatable viewpoint and 2. that  there are irrational(spiritual/religious) resources that we have lost connection to, ones that my essays and dreams seek to solicit, that could help to find solutions that respect the human rights and dignity of all involved in any complicated dispute. I doubt that there is any direction toward a solution to this that will feel good or easy. there may be easy ones that would feel  'right',  but ones that feel right  that are based only on   the 'legal and rational' alone are probably not morally balanced.

. here are the things that confuse me about this.  "fully developed irrational fear"... whose fully developed irrational fear?  Is it irrational? I realize that saying someone is having an 'irrational' viewpoint is usually a putdown. that is partly because most of us do not really believe there is anything  'real' or to be considered about the irrational. Most of my essays focus on taking the irrational element(eg The Collective Unconscious) of life seriously. But I admit it sounds like I'm using 'irrational' here pejoratively and can rightfully be taken that way.
Yes, I understand "group" vs. "individual" and the fact that people in groups will, at times, behave differently than when people are acting alone.  I also understand greed.  Do you mean greed of the group of middle class becoming the lower socioeconomic class?  mainly, the greed of any of us when we cling to our privileged access to the Earth's resources far more than we seek that others have sufficient access to them ...such as food, water, community safety, health care. I think I am referring primarily to those who have far more than needed access to such things, like the 2 % who have 45% of the total produced wealth.
If so, it seems to me the "greed" part is misdirected.  I also believe the "fear" if it is that of the middle class, is very likely to appear as anger because much anger is based on fear of loss... of loss of life, property, etc.  So, I can see the possibility for the appearance of violence and discrimination.  Yes and yes and yes. As real as any felt 'fear' is, it is usually a signal to look for solutions other than  resorting to 'violence or discrimination."  Fear is not usually a safe motivation for action in human interactions unless we are sure a person(s) intends to do us  harm. That is not likely the intent of  working non-documented immigrants. I am moved to try to find compassion for I'm pretty sure if I were in their place , and was as industrious, I would be doing exactly what they are doing. This is not the case for many behaviors of people that I question the morality of. So, in this situation, I am  personally obligated to look  hard for compassion such as 'a way to citizenship' that does not destroy my own  or others dignity. They are technically 'breaking a law' but I'm not sure they are acting immorally or with any intent to harm.
I think to call the fear "irrational" minimizes the problems the people in the state of Arizona, and in many other states, face re. the illegal alien influx.  While we are really busy cautioning each other to not condemn people who come here, even though they've come illegally, I think we should also caution each other to not condemn those who are hurt by it and suffering loss because of it.   When we call the fear "irrational", I  believe we are also guilty of "stereotyping" and doing a disservice to another group of people. I've somewhat addressed this very understandable question above. I realize that  if 'irrational' is used to  attack someone's integrity that is 'stereotyping.' I must confess that I have to wonder  if part of the emotion is because the immigrants  represent  the 'other' which always generates fear, and sometimes an irrational fear. A fear that gets out of proportion to the actual threat we are under. I agree with the red statement and I can only say we need to help one another to reach a greater respect for the 'irrational'. A trouble is that most of us do not agree that we have or do anything irrational. So 'irrational' is always feels like an attack on our integrity.
Not sure if I can explain this adequately.  Will start writing and see where the brain leads... of course, not all this is about the words you have written but also included experiences of my own .... This is all I can do for now. I hope I've touched on your primary questions. One thing for certain, if I attempted to respond to each of your concerns and statements I would know that this is only the beginning of the kind of conversation that needs to happen in the country. I can only offer my own take it on it and we all need to be careful with the idea that we can know best for people when we are not actually in their shoes. We need to have that reservation about all parties involved in such  a dispute.

History has shown us that amnesty programs for illegal aliens have not worked... by working, I mean they have not halted the influx of those who come here illegally.  So, to call something a "send them back" mentality, as if that is a bad thing, seems off the mark to me.  The federal laws have not been upheld, which is the root of the problem.  (If someone breaks the laws of this country, should the someone not have consequences?  Or should the someone be allowed to continue to break the laws?  Is it good for the majority of legal peoples, and those who are going through the proper channels to become legal, for some to be allowed to break the laws and to profit by doing so?  Is it a good thing for those who break the laws to be allowed a greater leniency than those who keep the laws?  Is it a good thing for those who break the laws to be allowed to profit to the extent that those who keep the laws suffer loss?) I feel the weight of all this and do not discount any of it.( I mentioned in the post that this calls for excellent attention  and intervention from the Federal government which I think has not been forthcoming and my concerns we may not have such a psychological/spiritual capacity now. I certainly am hoping so.)This has understandably increased the chances of locals taking the enforcement of law into their own hands. I am not suggesting that any local's upset is not totally understandable.  As I also said above I personally do not think that 'legal' arguments get to the bottom of this or offer the best framework for what has gone on for several decades. It sounds like they do but I think that is somewhat of an illusion. It is sort of like when I used to think I won arguments by quoting scripture.
So, while we are mixing logic and emotion, is it a good thing for us to offer emotional arguments to a logical problem?  One I have heard a lot is "You should feel sorry for those poor people who come here illegally. How can you condemn them?"  Another is "You are racist!"  Another is "There have been white people here for years who have used the system!"  Oh... and yet another, "White people won't do the jobs the illegals come here to do!"

In my opinion, it is just a series of things used against the legal peoples of this country so they can be played by big business and our own government.  We are being pitted against each other (We meaning the legal peoples of this country) so big business and government can profit and control.  (Ask some of the older truckers if they remember the signs placed on the borders decades ago... signs that directed illegals to the factories of this country.  Cargill was a big one in this.)   I surely think you are correct. I would also say there are ways that  the 'legals and the illegal workers' have been pitted against each other by the same corporate interests. That realization could really turn some things around in an extremely positive and hopeful way. I do not think all the blame is to be the corporations but because that is where the big money lies, that is likely where a larger part of the problem is.
Besides the immense economic drain it puts on resources that legal peoples have worked for, paid for, and have been told they would receive as a result of their work and pay, it puts a strain on the very lives of many in other ways.  ( I know of two have had children murdered by illegals.  A higher number, in the Arizona area among other areas, have lost jobs due to illegals being able to work for lesser wages.... which in many cases are sent back to the homeland rather than kept in this country.  Some have had their identities stolen/sold to illegals.  Some have watched their property values diminish... an example of the latter is an older couple who moved to Arizona after retirement.  They now say they do not feel safe in their own home and that the area looks like a cesspool due to the actions of illegals.  Another person who moved to Arizona in the past decade and who is a legal immigrant from Mexico, told me that she and her husband had to live in a fifth wheel for several years.  They had jobs but the economy is so bad that they could not have a home for quite a while.  She blames the illegals.  She also tells me that if someone really wants to become a legal citizen, the someone would place his loyalty with this country rather than working here and then returning to another country after taking the wealth of this country.  According to her, many of her illegal friends have told her that they are merely here to get the money and then to take it home... no intention of staying here forever unless more concessions are made to them.  She is furious about it.) I do not at all discount any of these type things happening. We can likely hear of such wrong doing at most any place in the country by people of all colors, legal and illegal, poor and rich. I think that such things happen more often where the people involved are living in desperate economic straits. That does not excuse but it is a definite factor that society can and is obligated to address. Somehow I tend to the think again that the most likely factor that could be remedied is that the such a huge amount of the country's productive wealth(wealth generated by the hard work of ordinary people(and i have to include the illegal immigrants) is in the hands of  a very few. ( A thought, People with large sums of cash on hand will use this present huge drop in the market to become multimillionaires again. The average person has no such easy access to increase their limited wealth. This is not wealth that is being earned or deserved by the top 2%. It is a confiscation of the wealth resources of the country and is I think bringing us down. This is the dark side of unmonitored Capitalism. )This sets ordinary people up to take out all their hurts and frustrations on each other for those that are most responsible seem untouchable and unaccountable.
I do feel sorry for those who come here illegally at great risk when they are coming here in hope of bettering their lives.  On the other hand, I feel sorry for those who are hurt by the illegal influx.  It seems while we are being taught to feel sorry for those who choose to break the laws of our country, we are also being taught to condemn those who are hurt by the actions of the lawbreakers. 
A quick retort to those who disagree with allowing another amnesty/pathway to citizenship, is "you are racist!"  ......Anyway, an easy out is to yell "racist" and avoid the very real problem of laws being broken.   
As for the "white people here who have used the system".  Yes, there are those and they disgust me and I do believe they should be held accountable.  I do not believe others, who did not use the system, should be held accountable or told they will have to do with less because of others' in many cases illegal actions. 
As for the "white people won't do those jobs"... Seems the jobs got done before a massive influx of illegals... hmmm... how the heck did that happen.  (My mom said this to me during one of our conversations.  My response was that she has been very fortunate to not have to do such jobs, but that many of us have done and are doing such jobs.  I've done a lot of jobs that others would not consider.  Sure at times it was very hard and depressing, but better than being dishonest and using the system, etc.  I would do those types of jobs again at any time.  Some people seem to need to realize work is work and a job is an honorable thing even when there are those who look down upon others who do not have as high-paying jobs as others are fortunate to have.) 

I think the very real danger in this situation is that we blame each other and character assassinate each other, without understanding the reasons we are really in the situation.  We follow blindly along and use stereotypes against each other while big business and our own government benefit.  Big business benefits in being able to lower wages for employees... there we go... the greed of the few, not the greed of the many as we are being told.  (The greed of the many refers to us being told that the legal people are greedy and the problem.  No, big business is the culprit and is the real problem.  Add the corrupt politicians who have allowed and encouraged the problem.) 

Do you know a perfect plan to destroy the middle class?  Get rid of the jobs or make sure they pay less than a living wage.  Pit the people against each other in order to proceed with the plan undetected. Buy up the land in rural areas and make sure there are no jobs in rural areas.  People will be forced to move to less rural areas.  Once you contain a population in a small area and control the food supply, you have total control of the country.  Then, all you have to do is limit information/knowledge.  (Hmmm... put all the information on electronic media.  That can be destroyed with the push of a button.)  scary times, if you think about it and do nothing to prepare for the possibility.

Below refers to this section from the post called 'The Least Of These.'There is indeed a way of viewing this social reality that causes the 'more privileged' to have and act from much guilt. This guilt is very undefined and likely an unhealthy motivator in approaching real solutions to the problem. The kids were introducing this guilt in their chant, 'Jim doesn't care.'

Oh, I know this is long... if you are still reading by this point... there is another thing that bothered me about your blog this time.  It was the dream section about the boys showing up and your boundaries, etc.  This confuses the heck out of me.  Is this really an example of a personal moral dilemma, or is it an example of a "you are supposed to feel bad about this" teaching that is based on another type of stereotyping?   I'm not sure of how you are seeing this. I think I understood the boys were likely looking for some human warmth and maybe some food and a safe nights sleep. But they are also the 'legal' children of someone.  I could provide this for a moment but does that really eve begin to help them have their long term needs met. Some folks get caught up into 'doing good' to help themselves feel better rather than what is in the long term interest of those they 'help'.  This was the kind of dilemma I think the dream was calling my attention to. It is hard to sort out when one should dispense with the accepted  and even legal boundaries or need to realize that one can't solve every human problem that is brought to ones awareness. And still be around to do anything else. This is a very tricky area to find what is ethical and moral or selfishness.
There is that teaching that we are being "racist" or uncaring even when we are not.  Manipulation at its best.  (Moms who use Irish guilt would be impressed if they thought about it.)  (After growing up with a momma who could instill Irish guilt at its finest, I decided I do not like guilt.. especially if it is undeserved guilt.)
So what exactly is wrong with boundaries?  Fences good neighbors make.  :)  Boundaries are necessary in many ways.  Logic is also necessary.  To be logical, how would you have taken care and provided for four more children at that time?  I mean, without causing your own to do with less or causing yourself to do with much less?  Of course, there is the possibility you could have done so. Suppose the number increased to twelve children.  Would you still believe you were at fault if you had boundaries and saw the impossibility of it?  What if it had been white children or Hispanic children?  Does the color make a difference in your willingness to keep the children... or is it really the number?  Next question... would you fault any other person in a similar situation for not taking in four children of any color?  Or are you being harder on yourself than you would be on others?  (Just curious.)  I think I got into what you are saying here in my comments above. I now see you were not being hard on me for not keeping the little boys. There is a time to set boundaries and a time to tear them down. ..... wisdom is knowing the difference.
Yes, I probably am an isolationist.  seems logical to me.  As for this country, it could benefit from some isolationism.  Instead we have big business that promotes a global economy... which will fail because of the greed of a few.  Big business is not out to make people have better lives everywhere.  It is manipulating all of us so none of us will have better lives except big business.  (I use the term Big Business to refer to those greedy few who have way too much control of most of the assets of this country and many others.)   In a perfect world where all live in brotherhood and peace, etc., global economics could work.  Sadly, this is not a perfect world.  I do know this.. in order to help others in the best way possible, I have to have a strong base.  By that I mean I have to accumulate the resources that allow me to be of help to others... mentally, physically, financially, etc.  I can not help to the best of my ability if I give away the farm at the start.  I think this is more of what we are both getting at and agreed... genuine human limitations vs greed but is not simple to sort out. here I think some help form the Unconscious might a dream that gives a more whole perspective. . I think that most situations are calling on us to find the right balance, the golden mean. I think my  entire blog is trying to say that if we do not consult and acknowledge the irrational forces and resources what 'seems' to be a balance based on the 'logical and the legal' will not really be the needed balanced perspective for complicated situations.  Our culture has simply not alerted us to such resources or advised us to take them seriously. The red sentences where I do not comment are ones that  I also especially  agree with or that strike me as very important.

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